Navigating EU vs. US Solar Regulation ft. Benoy Thanjan | Soliverse Ep. 36
Show notes
What does it really take to build, finance, and scale solar projects when policy keeps shifting, capital is more cautious, and grid constraints are getting harder to ignore? In this episode of Soliverse | The Future of Solar, host Peter Pongracz sits down with Benoy Thanjan, Founder and CEO of Reneu Energy and host of the Solar Maverick Podcast, for a grounded conversation on where the solar market is actually headed across the U.S. and beyond.
They unpack the real-world state of solar in 2025 and beyond, from agrivoltaics and floating solar to community solar, storage, project risk, data center demand, recycling, repowering, and the long-term challenge of competing with China. Benoy also shares what developers, investors, and industry leaders need to understand now about energy independence, market messaging, and why creativity remains one of solar’s biggest competitive advantages.
If you work in solar, storage, development, project finance, or clean energy investing, this episode gives you a practical look at the forces shaping the next phase of the energy transition.
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Thank you for listening to Soliverse | The Future of Solar, the podcast for people building the future of solar, storage, and renewable infrastructure.
Each episode features grounded, unfiltered conversations with the people financing, developing, operating, and scaling real projects across the solar and clean energy ecosystem.
Soliverse exists to cut through noise, hype, and disconnected narratives and replace them with clarity, realism, and execution-focused insight for professionals who want to make smarter decisions, faster.
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Transcript
Coming up...
SPEAKER_01: Unlessit'slikealaterstageopportunity,it'sextremelychallengingtogetdevelopmentcapital.There'ssomanyvariablesinvolved,andalotofthevariablesreallytheinvestorordevelopercan'tcontrol.
Peter Pongracz: ThatisBenoitTanjan,founderandCEOofFreeNewEnergy,cleanenergyinvestorandhostoftheworld'smostlistentoSolarPodcast,theSolarMaverickspodcast.Hebelievesthebiggestriskinsolarrightnowisnottechnologyordemand,butuncertaintyoffreezingcapitalbeforeprojectsevengetachancetomoveforward.
SPEAKER_01: Investorsarerecalibrating.Unlessit'slikealaterstageopportunity,it'sextremelychallenging.We'reseeinginvestorswhoarewillingtoinvestinprojectsandgetalowerreturn,butobviouslytheyhavetobegreatprojectsforthemtocontinue.
Peter Pongracz: Hebreaksdownhowinvestorbehaviorisshiftingglobally,whyearlystagesolarisstrugglingtoattractcapitalandwhatdevelopersaregettingwrongwhentheyassumedemandalonewillcarrytheprojectforward.
SPEAKER_01: Solaristhecheapestformofenergy,thefastesttocomeonline.We'vemadethiswholethingsocomplicated,morecomplicatedthanitshouldbe.
Peter Pongracz: TodayBenOiexplainshowdevelopers,investors,andoperatorscannavigatepolicyrisks,capitalshifts,andgridconstraintswithoutlosingmomentum.Bytheendofthisconversation,youwillunderstandwhycapitalispullingbackbeforeprojectsevenstall,howinvestorsareunderwritingriskintoday'smarketandhowtheindustrycansimplifyinsteadofover-engineeritself.I'mPeterPongratsandthisisSolyverse.
Meet Benoy Thanjan
Ireallyseeandfeelahugeshakeupofwherecompaniesaredevelopingprojectsandtryingtobuildeithersolarorhybridprojects.IspoketoadevelopertheotherdayfromsouthernEuropeandtheyusedtodoonlyEurope.Nowtheyarealmost80%focusedontheMiddleEast.SotheyaredevelopingsomehugesitesinQatar,forexample,whichiscrazy.AndIwaslike,Howbighowbig?Oh,around600megawatts,youknow,it'sonesite.
ThemagnitudeisabsolutelyoutofthisworldintheMiddleEastandthespeedaswell.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,it'sprettyamazingtoseehowliketheprojectsizehasgottensomuchbigger.Irememberwhenpeoplewouldtalkaboutoneorfivemegawattsbeingalargeproject,andnow20,40,50,100megawattsornothing,especiallywhenyoutalkaboutplaceswhereyoucouldputalotofsolaronland.Soobviously,liketheMiddleEast,youcouldputalotofsolar.AndweseethataswellincertainpartsoftheU.S.,we'reseeinglargeutilityscaleprojects,obviously,inTexas.
AndI'vedrivenbysomanybigprojectsinNevadaandwherelandisrelativelycheap,youhavehighsolarradiance.Itmakesyouknowtotalsensetotakeadvantageofthesun.
Why agrivoltaics is growing, even as regulation tightens
Peter Pongracz: HereinEurope,it'sgettingincreasinglydifficulttofindonepieceoflargelandthatyoucandevelop,actually,becauseotherwiseyouhavesomerestrictions.Forexample,inItaly,youcanonlydoagri-PVanymoreonfertileland.Soit'sgettingalittlebitmoreregulated,butyoucanalwaysfindsomethings.AndIwasjustchattingwiththeguysfromSolarPowerEuropethismorning,andthedatashowsthat,forexample,BEShasalmostdoubledsinceyear-on-yearfrom2024to2025inEurope.
Sothat'sthefastestgrowingsegment.Havingsaidthat,thesadpartisthatweactuallydecreasedforthefirsttimeinthelast10yearsintermsofsolarinstallations.Sowewentfrom68gigawattsin24to65beinginstalledin25.Sothat'sthefirstdropinthelastdecade.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,thatisverysurprisingtohearthattherehasbeenadrop,butthatmakessense.Obviously,whenyourestrictthetypeoflandthatyoucouldputsiteson,thatwillobviouslyimpacthowmuchsolarcomesonline.Andbytheway,thesamethingishappeningintheUS.You'reright,likecertainpartsoftheU.S.,there'salotoflandwhereyoucouldpotentiallyputsolar.Butforexample,likeintheNortheast,I'minNewJersey,rightacrossthewaterfromNewYorkCity,theyactuallydon'tallowutilityscalesolarsince2012.
Andit'sonlyrelatedtoagrovotaics,whichisbasicallydoingsolaronfarmland.Theyjustrecentlyreleasedapilot,meaningit's10megawatts,andthenIthinkit'sonly50megawattsofprojectsthatthey'reapprovingbecausealotofpeoplewereupsetthatonproductivelandpeoplewereputtingsolar.Soit'sinterestingbecauseobviouslyyou'reseeingthatwiththeagrovoltaics,butthenlandfillsandthenflotovoltaicsaswell.
Sowe'reseeingotherusesofsolar,notonfertileorlargelandsitesthatyoucouldbeusingforotherpurposes.
Peter Pongracz: Yeah,ImeanthefloatingPV,frommyexperience,isquitebiginAsia.It'sgettingbiggerandbigger,youknow,andthentheyhavedifferentformulationswhereyoucanputitonalakeoryoucanactuallyplaceitkindofontheseaaswell.Butthenitgetsalittlebitmoredifficultwiththewaves,etc.Therearequiteafewcompanies,andIwasdoingsomemarketsegmentationlastyearonthis,butthetotaladdressablemarketwastinycomparedtoutilityscaleorCNI.
SPEAKER_01: Oh,ofcourse.It'sstilllikeveryinfancyandit'salotmorecomplicated.Andyeah,Ithinkpeopledon'treallyunderstand,butIthinkastimegoeson,youknow,there'llbecreativedeveloperswhofocusonittofindtherightopportunities.Samethinginagrovotacsaswell.Wefindthatfarmerswhowanttolookatagrovotacs,theywantsomeonewhohaslikeafarmingbackground.Andthenalsotoo,like,areyougonnadograzingversuscertaintypesofcrops?
Andthenthatimpactshowtheinstallationisdone,aswellashowmuchsteelyouhavetoputin,likeifyou'regonnaputitatahighersortoftoallowthecropsorthesheettogounderyouhaveit,thesolarpanelshigherupabovetheground.Soit'sinterestingtoseeallthissortofspecialization.There'sconferencesandpeoplewhospecializejustonagroboteics,justonphotovoltaics,andobviouslyjustonutilityscale,butthere'sthat'sobviouslyalotlargeraddressablemarket.
Peter Pongracz: Oh,forsure.AndImean,therearesomecoolcompaniesoutthere,likeasolargeekoutofIsrael,youknow,theyspecializeinthis.AndthenIactuallyhadMoontheshowaswell,anduhhewasexplainingthatitcanactuallybemorebeneficialforthecropsaswell,becauseyoucandoanti-tracking.Soifthere'stoomuchsuninthemiddleofthesummer,thenyoucanactuallyshadethecropssoyoudon'tburnthemoutifit'stoodry,etc.
So,youknow,thereareacoupleofcoolinterestingusecasesaswell.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,andothercountriesseemtobealotmoreadvanced.Iactuallysawasolargigatthefirstagrobotanicsconferencethat'sinChicago.Nowthey'regonnahavetheirfourthone.Ispokeattheconference.Soitwasinterestingtohearumaboutthatandhowirradianceandshadingcouldhelpthecrop,andthenyou'regettingtheproductionfromthesystemaswell.Soyou'rediversifyingyourcashflowsforthefarmer,andnormallythey'regettingaleasepayment.
Usuallythat'showit'sstructuredtousetheland,andthenthesolardeveloper/slashownerobviouslyownstheproject.Sothat'sinteresting.
Peter Pongracz: InEurope,wehavesomerestrictionsforthataswell,becauseinitiallyitwastoogoodofadealforthefarmer,soitwouldhavebeenworth,youknow,justhavingthesolarwithoutfarmingunderneathit.Butnowyouhavecertainrestrictionsoflike,okay,ithastobeXY%oftheentirelandproperlyandactivelyusedforagriculture,andthentherestcantakeupthesolarpart.Butit'saninterestingusecaseforsure.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,thatisinterestingbecausetheUSit'snotasadvanced,youknow,it'sstillprettyearlyon.IthinklikeMassachusettswaslikethefirstonetohavelikeapilotprogramforagrovotex.Andthenwe'reseeingincertainstatesthey'reusingdifferentusecasesandthey'rehavingdifferentsolarcompaniescomeandlookatit.Soit'sinterestingtogetdifferentperspectives,andit'sgreattospeaktoyou,Peter,becauseyou'rereallyintunewithwhat'shappeningintheEuropeanmarket.
Iknowonthepodcast,you'reinterviewingalotofdifferentpeoplefromalotofdifferentplacesaswell.
Peter Pongracz: Yeah,indeed.Maybethat'sagoodsegueintoaquickrecapon2025.Ijusthavethenumbersinfrontofmehere.IliketheUSinstalledsomewherearound45,47gigawattsofnewcapacity.Howdidtheyearfeelontheground?WasitjustasshakyasinEurope?Orwhatisthekindofreal-worldfeedbackfromthemarket?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,definitely.Asadeveloperofprojects,andwealsodoconsultingservicesfordevelopers,investors.ItwasareallybusyyearbecausethebigbeautifulbillwaspassedinthebeginningofJuly.Soitfeltlikearace.Everyonewaslikeistryingtobuild,andevennowtoo,becauseyoustillcouldapplyforthe30%IDCwithcontinuousconstructionrole.Soit'sbeenareallybusyyearsincethatbillwaspassed,andthenevenintothisyear,it'sjustbeenaverybusytimebecauseeveryonewantstogetthefull30%investmenttaxcredit.
What 2025 really feels like for solar developers and investors
AndthenIknowweweretalkinginthepre-interview,likeyouknow,2026isalikeIthinkyou'llstillseelikealotofprojectscomeonlinebecauseofthehangoverfromthebigbeautifulbillfrom2025.Butthengoingforward,itmightbealittlemorechallenginginthesenseofwe'restilltryingtogetguidanceontheforeignentityofconcernlanguage.Sobasically,Idon'tknowyouknowhowfamiliaryouraudienceis,butPresidentTrumpsignedanexecutiveorder,IthinkitwasJuly7th,whichbasicallysaidin2026youcan'thavecertaincomponentsfromChina,whichisreallytheforeignentityofconcernandownership,majorityownership.
Weweresupposedtoreceivethatthatguidancewithin30to45daysafterthatwasexecutiveorderwassigned,butwehaven'treceivedguidanceyet.Iknowalotoflawfirmsandaccountingfirmshavebeentalkingtothefederalgovernmentandcomingupwithguidelines,butyoureallydon'tknowwhatthat'sgonnabe.There'salotofdeveloperswhoarebeingextremelyaggressivebecausetheyfeelliketheyunderstandwhattheguidanceisgonnabebytalkingtotheirlegalexperts.
We'veseeninthepastthatyoucouldgetburnedbyitaswell,youknow.Soit'sinteresting,youknow,what'shappeningintheUSmarketwithlikethechallenges.
Peter Pongracz: Yeah,Imean,IandIthinkyouknowtheriskreallyshiftedintotheearlystageoftheprojects,right?Thefurtherdownyouare,maybeifyouareRTBoryoualreadyhaveaPPA,thenit'salittlebitmoresolidcase.Butuh,youknow,IknowIjustsawthedatafromoneofmyclients,andthentheybasicallyweclearlyseetheshiftfrombothintheUSandEurope,sothere'snodifferenceofinvestorsshiftingappetitetomoresolid,morebiggertrackrecordtypeofassetswhereyouactuallyseethetrackrecord,theyarefinewiththeloweryieldandthelowerROIaswell,butitfeelslikeyouknow,runforsafetyanditcanbeobservedacrosstheglobeaswell.
SPEAKER_01: That'strue.That'sagreatpoint,Peter.Ithinklikewhatwe'reseeing,asyoumentioned,islikeinvestorsarerecalibrating.Likethey'rebasically,unlessit'slikealaterstageopportunity,it'sextremelychallenging.Like,forexample,togetdevelopmentcapitalforearlystageprojects.Imean,we'reseeinglargecompaniesbeingabletoraisecapital,butthesmallerdeveloperisnotabletodothatatthistime.
Andit'sinterestingbecauseIthinkIwasactuallytalkingtosomeonethatIhadonmypodcast,andreallyliketheinvestorandthedeveloperswanttoknowlike,howlongisthisgonnatakeandwhat'sourreturngonnabefortheproject,ortheyouknow,butnowit'sreallyhardtodeterminethatjustbecausethere'ssomanyvariablesinvolved,andalotofthevariablesreallytheinvestorordevelopercan'tcontrol.Soweareseeingalotofdeveloperswhoareholdingoffonnewinvestmentopportunities.
Asyoumentionedbefore,we'reseeinginvestorswhoarewillingtoinvestinprojectsandgetalowerreturn,butobviouslytheyhavetobegreatprojectsforthemtocontinue.Andyeah,it'saninterestingtime.Ithinkyou'reseeingthatallovertheworld,notjusttheUS.
Peter Pongracz: Yeah,Imean,moreorlessisn'ttheyacrosstheglobe,butfromthedataI'veseen,thetimeofpuresolarprojectsisalmostdone.Ifyoudoautilityscale,puresolar,it'snotreallyanattractiveopportunity.Everybodyislookingathybrids,ormaybehybridsalsowithwindandbestcombined.Thestandaloneisreallydead.Ithink,atleastfromtheEuropeanperspective,thereasonsarequiteclear,butwearereallylookingformoreflexibilitybothfromthegridandalsoproductionbecausewehaveeveryyearmoreandmorenegativepricinghours.
Andthenontheotherhand,youneedtokindofstabilizethegridalittlebitsoyoucan'tjustdopuresolar.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,Imean,we'reseeingthesamethingintheUS,specificallylikesolarplusstorageorstoragestandalone.Obviously,everyoneinthesolarindustrytalksaboutthenegatives,whichisthequickstepdownoftheinvestmenttaxcredit,especiallywhenyoutalkabouttheresidentialsolarmarket.Butitdoeshaveastandalonelikeenergystoragebenefit,andit'sactuallyextended.Iforgettowhatyearitis,butnoweverysolardeveloperinstallerisnowsayingwe'resolarplusstorage.
Is storage ready, or are we still early?
Soit'sinterestingbecausestorageisalotmorecomplicatedthansolar,andtheninvestorstheydon'tliketotakemerchantrisk,theywantlikefixedcashflowstreams.Sowe'reseeinginCERNmarketsittobemorepopular,likeforexample,inMassachusettswiththeSMARTprogram,theyhavelikeafeed-intariff.We'reseeinginNewYorkaswell,withintheVeter,thevalueofdistributedenergyresources,theyhavelikeakindoflikeit'svariable,butithasafixedcomponentaswell.
Andthenbasically,likesolicitationsthatutilitiesdo,likeinCaliforniaandHawaiiforstorage,everyone'sreallylookingatstorage.Istillthinkit'sreallyearly,eventhoughI'vebeentalkingaboutstorageforlike10years,andobviouslythepricedeclineswe'reseeingarethesamewithsolar,andit'sagamechanger,right?Youhaveanintermittentpowersourcethatthenyoucouldbasicallydrawfromatanytimewithstorage.
Californiahashadtheissuewiththeduckcurveforaverylongtime,whatyouweretalkingabout,likethenegativepricingandthattoomuchsolarcomingatpeaktimes,andnowthepeaktimehaschanged.Andwe'reseeingthatinotherstatesthathavealotofsolar,andthenobviouslystorageisagreatwaytofixthatissue.Andwe'realsoseeinghowdifferenttechnologiesintegrated,butIthinkit'sstillveryearlywhenitcomestostorage.
AndIguessthechallengetooisthatstartingin2026,mostofthesupplychaincan'tbecomingfromChina,whichrightnowtheUSreallydoesn'thave,evenforsolarpanels,butstorage,especially.Wedon'thavethesupplychainhere.Soit'sinterestingbecauseIwaslisteningtoyourpodcastwithTimMontague,andhementionsthispoint,islikethefederalgovernmentwantsonshoringandmanufacturingofcertaincriticalindustries,butittakestimetodothat.
Youcan'tinstantaneouslyputtheserestrictionsandthenreallytheindustryistryingtofigureouthowtoinnovate,Iguess,ifthatmakessense.Butittakestimetotransitionevenlikethewholepartofthesupplychainforpanels,likeeventhewafersorthecells,likemanufacturinginthatinthatintheUSisprettyrare,youknow,otherthanjustassembling.
Peter Pongracz: Yeah,andtoaddtothat,therawmaterialpricesaswell,youknow,silverspikedalittlebit,whichisoneofthehugecomponents.SoImean,Ithinkit'sdefinitelygoingtobeaturbulentyearagain,butwejustneedtofindwaystonavigateit.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,definitely.Andwhat'sgreatabouttheindustryislikeitissocreative.Obviously,therearealotofcompaniesthataregoingoutofbusiness,butthere'speoplebeingcreativeandfindingwaysofstayinginbusiness.Andthecreativitybytheindustryorthesolarcoasterisamazingtosee.There'ssomanysmartpeopleintheindustry,andthey'llcomeupwithcreativesolutionstogetthroughthattime.
Why solar’s most valuable trait might be creativity
Peter Pongracz: That'ssomethingIreallyloveaboutsolar,isthatyoustillhavethisunderdogtypeofmentalitythatyouneedtobequitecreative,youneedtobe50,andthenyouyouwillfindsolutionsforsure.
SPEAKER_01: Oh,forsure.LikesolarhassomeofthemostcreativepeoplethatI'veevermet.Andit'sinterestingbecausethenI'veseensolarpeoplegotootherindustries,andthenthey'vebeenextremelysuccessful,andtheycreditittothecreativityofbeinginthesolarindustry.Whenyou'reinanindustrythat'sobviouslynowemerging,Imeanit'smorethanemerging,butit'sverydictatedonpolicyandpolicywhimsthatchangeprettyfrequentlyandthecomplexityrelatedtotheproject.
Thinkaboutit.Really,solarsolarpanelsinburningandracking.IntheUnitedStates,we'vemadethiswholethingsocomplicated,morecomplicatedthanshouldbe.Likejustgetting,youknow,projectspermitted,theinterconnection,thefinancingoftheseprojectswiththisinvestmenttaxcredit,thedepreciation,howyoustructurethesethings,whereyougetthesupplychain,multipletariffsonChineseandSoutheastAsianpanels.
It'sinterestingbecausethisisthefuelsourcethat'sthecheapestandfastesttocomeonlineforanenergyresource.Butfromthestatelevel,theutilitylevel,federallevel,it'sbeenmadesocutmorecomplicatedthanitreallyhastobe.
Peter Pongracz: Yeah,butit'sthecaseeverywhereelse.Youknow,thesystemthat'sveryfragmentedandthedifferentstakeholdershavedifferentgoalsandneeds.AndthentheproblemarisesthatIwanttoonlyinstallasmuchsolarorbestasIwant,andIdon'tcareaboutthegrid.Andnow,youknow,withtheregulation,youkindofneedtofitasquarethrougharoundhole,youknow,thatyoukindofneedtosomehowguidetheseprojectssoitdoesn'tcauseanytroublewiththegridandtheflexibilitysideofthings,andyoudon'thavetoomuchuhcurtailmenteither.
Butonthatnote,ifyouweren'tinsolar,whichindustrywouldyoubeworkingin?
SPEAKER_01: It'sinterestingbecausemybackground'sinfinance.SoIthinkthere'salotofopportunityontheinvestmentside.Andobviouslyit'sextremelychallengingrightnow,butIthinkthere'salotofopportunitiestounderstandtransferabilityofthetaxcredit.Soessentially,liketransferabilityallowsthesimplificationofyouneedlikeataxliabilitytotakeadvantageoftheinvestmenttaxcredit,andtransferabilitymakesitsomucheasierthanitwaspreviously,whereyouhavetodoalotofcomplexstructuring.
Ithinkconsultingservicesaswell,ifyouhavelikeacertainsortofexperience,whatwe'reseeingtooislikeifyou'regoodatobviouslycustomeracquisitionsorsales,developmentasaservice,youknow,peoplearefinding,tryingtofindwaystobemoreefficient.Youknow,whatthestepdownorthebigbeautifulbillisdoingisotherthanyouknow,obviouslypeoplefocusingonstorage,islikehowcanwebemoreefficienttogettheeconomicsrelatedtotheprojectstomakethemwork.
SoI'mseeingalotofcreativity.AndIthinkalsotoo,likepeoplearehiringlessandthey'reusingobviouslyAI,butthenthey'realsousingconsultantsaswell.Soifyouhaveadeepknowledgebaseandsomethinglike,forexample,interconnectionorpermitting,Ithinkjustthinklikeandit'stooeverything'slikestatespecific,evenutilityspecificwithinthestate.Soifyouhavethatsortofknowledge,that'sextremelyunique,andyoucanmakeprojectsbecauseIfocusonprojectsbecausewearedoingalotofprojectdevelopment.
Ithinkthere'salotofvalueforthat,youknow.
Peter Pongracz: Indeed,indeed.Andyou'dratherbeasushinaviknifethanaSwissknifeinthesedays,right?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,forsure.EspeciallywhenAIcanreplacealotofthings,youknow.Sotohavethatdeepknowledge,alsothenetworkandtherelationships,right?LikeonethingwhatI'velearnedfromdevelopingprojectsisyoureallyneedtohavereallygreatrelationswithinthetownshipthatyou'rebuildingtheprojectwiththeseniorpeople,meaningthemayor,butalsotheelectricityutility,uh,youknow,thepeoplewhoworkoninterconnectioninthetown,likepermitting.
Soalotofdevelopmentislocalandit'sreallylocalized.IrememberwhenwewerelookingatlandsitesinVirginia,andtheyweresurprisedlikeaNewYork,NewJerseydeveloperisinVirginia.Youknow,obviouslytheywantsomeonelocal.It'sinterestingbecauseIrememberwhenwefirststartedlookingforcommunitysolarsitesandtalkingtolandownersinNewYork.I'mnotgoingtonamethenameofthecompany,buttheywerelike,ohyeah,wekeepgettinglettersfromthiscompanyinCaliforniaandSantaMonica.
We'reinNewYork,andyouknow,wewanttoworkwithalocalbusinessinthearea.Soit'sinteresting.Likedevelopmentislocalized,it'sallabouttherelationships.We'redoing,asImentionedtoyoubefore,likethelargestsolarprojectinNewYorkCityinManhattan.And,youknow,that,youknow,gettingthemayor'sofficeonboard,NYCerta,whichdoesthecleanenergybenefits,ConEdison,andthentheNewYorkHousingAThordayandNYCHA.
Imean,thattakesyearstobuildthoserelationshipswheretheyallowyouto.Bringtheseprojectsforwardortogetthemcomfortable.Soandthenonceyouknowyouhavethatsortofrapport,it'saloteasierandscalablebecauseyouhavethatrelationship.
Peter Pongracz: Butit'sonlyscalablelocally.
The policy risk that can wipe out years of development work
SPEAKER_01: It'sonlyscalablelocally,yes.Unlessyou'reaninvestorofprojects,right?Becauseyouknow,youhavethelocaldevelopersreallytaketheprojectstoNTPCODandthenyouknowyou'reyoukindoftakeitfromthere.It'sonlyreallybeenlocal,unlessit'slikeaninvestorofprojects.Developmentislocal.Soyouhavetounderstand,like,we'reveryinvolvedinlikethestatepolicyincertainmarkets,sothatweknowlikewhatthepolicyisgoingtobeinthefuture,sothatwecouldalreadystartlikereachingouttotheselandownersbeforebecauseoncethingsaresodefinite,meaningthepolicyisfinalized,everydeveloperisgonnacomeintothatmarketifit'sobviouslyaviablemarkettodevelopsolarprojects,meaninglikethere'sthefinancialreturn.
Andthemarketsgetsaturatedprettyquickly,too.It'slikewewereveryaggressiveinCaliforniaforthepotentialCaliforniacommunitysolarprogram.Luckily,weweren'tasaggressiveasotherdevelopers,butthentheCaliforniaPUCin2024saidnotothesevengigawattCaliforniaCommunitySolarProgram,whichwasfrustratingtoalotofdevelopersbecausedeveloperswereaggressivelygettinglandsitesunderoptionforthisprogram,andthentheysaidnotoit,eventhoughitlookedlikeitwasgoingtogetapproved.
So,youknow,peopleobviouslylostalotofmoney.
Peter Pongracz: Allthoseresourcesinvested,andthenyouknow,ifthegroundshakes,thenuhyeah,youreallyneedtomanageyourrisk,Ithink.Youknow,it'smoreandmoresowiththeregulationandeverythingelsegettingmoreandmorestrict.It'squitetricky.
SPEAKER_01: It'sverytricky.Andcommunitysolar,likepoliticianslovecommunitysolarbecauseyou'reusuallylikethere'sacontingencyforlikelowmoderateincomecustomerstogetit.Also,peoplewhocan'tgetsolar,whoyouknowforliveinanapartmentbuildingormaybethey'reshadingattheirhouse,anditcreatesjobstoo,andit'sprivatelyfunded.SoIthinkCCSA,whichisliketheNationalCommunitySolarAssociation,saidthatonefivefivemegawattACcommunitysolarcreateslike$15millionofeconomicoutputforthatcommunity,andit'sallfromprivateinvestment.
Butthechallengeisthatyouhaveobviouslylargeutilities,youknow,theydon'tnecessarilywantthecompetition,right?Butthesedistributedresourcesdohelpwiththereliabilityofthegrid,especiallywiththeaginginfrastructure.Ithinkthat'sreallywhathappenedwithCaliforniawastheutilitiesareverystrongandtheydidn'twantthisprogramandtheysaidnotoit.Theykindofwanttheprogramundertheirjurisdictionsothattheyhavecontrol.
It'sinteresting,andit'shard,right?Likeasadeveloper,it'sonlysolarpanelsrackingandinverters,butthere'ssomuchmorethatgoesintoit,andit'ssocomplicated.Andfromapolicyperspective,whatyouseeisalotofthedevelopersarenotsosophisticatedtoknowaboutallthesedifferentthings.Youknow,theymightknowhowtolikefindagoodlandsiteanddevelopsolar,butthenthefinancingissocomplicatedforasolarproject,andthenthepolicy,too.
It'snoteasytounderstand.Youneedanexperttounderstandthem.Luckily,likewe'veadvisedalotofcompaniesonlikedevelopersandEuropeandeveloperstoo,whohavecomeintotheUSmarketbecausethereisalotofopportunity,andtherestillisgoingtobe.It'sjustthere'salotofchallenges.Butwhatthosechallengesdocreateisopportunityforthesmartdeveloper,smartinvestor.
Peter Pongracz: Youknow,youjustneedtolearnhowtonavigatethem.
Why project development now feels like playing poker
SPEAKER_01: Yes.Seriously.That'sbeenachallengeformebecausethere'ssomeprojectsIshouldhavesaid,andIsawotherdevelopersquitprettyquickly.ButIkeeppushing.Butthenifyoulookattheamountofmoneythatwasspentandthehoursandwhatyou'regettingfortherelevantdevelopmentfee,itactuallydoesn'tmakebusinesssense.ButIguessthat'spartofthewholelearningprocesstoo.Andthenyougetsmarterastimegoeson.
Andsomeoftheseprojectswe'vebeendevelopingforthree,five,sevenyears.We'restillwaitingtogettothemajorprojectmilestones.Ifyouthinkabouthowsimplesolarisversuslikearealestateproject,right?Likeitshouldn'ttakethatmuchtime,butit'sunfortunatebecausethere'ssomuchregulationandsomuchapproval.AndIagreewithyou,likewehavetobecautiousonhowwemanagethegrid,right?Youcan'tjustletanyprojectcome.
ButIthinkthere'swaysofexpeditingthings.AndIthinkwhat'shappeningtooisliketheutilitycompaniesneedtobemoreflexibleandcreative,andtheycan'tsurviveonwhattheydidinthepastbecauseeverything'scompletelychanging.Obviously,thedemandforelectricityisgrowingexponentially,especiallywithAIanddatacenters,andtheyhavetobealotmorecreativethantheyhavebeeninthepast.Localizedenergyandsmartenergyanddistributedenergyresourcesandmicrogridsanddifferenttechnologiesareallpartofit.
Andit'snotgoingtobelikeonepowerplantgenerationandthentransmissiondistributionlines.It'sinteresting.It'sthebeginningofthegreatenergyrevolutionthat'sprobablygoingtogoonforanother30,40,50yearsfromwhatyou'veconventionallyconsumedenergy,youknow.
Peter Pongracz: Imean,fromthepeopleIspeaktointheUS,thekeywordthatalwayskeepscomingbackisDG,youknow,inthelasthalfayear,especially,andlovetoplaythedevil'sadvocateaswellwhenitcomestothesethings,becauseimaginethatlet'ssayinyourlocalenvironmentorinyourlocalcountysituation,whateveritthecasemightbe.Imagineifyouhaveadatacenter,right?Technically,thewayitworks,ifyoupurelybaseitondemandandsupplywithoutregulation,thattheycanoutbidyouofyourinelectricity,right?
Soifyoudon'thaveyourowngeneration,you'rereallyatthemercyofthemarket.Andifthat'snotregulatedcorrectly,whichyouknowmayormaynotbe,youcanfallvictimofthat.
Are data centers pushing electricity prices higher?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,that'sactuallyabigthingthatwe'rehearingalotaboutislike,youknow,theresidentialcustomerpayingforthedatasethigherelectricityprices.Andthishasactuallybecomeapoliticalissueinthepastelection.IknowmoreofNewJerseyaswell,becauseyouknow,electricityrateswasactuallyabigthingrelatedtothecampaignaboutresidentialelectricityratesgoingupbecauseit'sbeenpredominantlyflatforalongperiodoftime,andthenit'sreallygoneup,andit'sbecauseofalargeloadcomingfromthedatacentersandpricesgoingup.
Andalso,therehasn'tbeenreallythecomparablegenerationtocomeonlinetomeetthat.Andit'sinterestingbecausenowthey'retalkingaboutkeepingopencertainplantsthatwerecoalornaturalgasorevennuclearthatwereplannedtobemothballedinthefuture,butbecauseyouneedthatgeneration,they'regoingtokeepthatonline.Soit'saninterestingdiscussionbecausesomeofthesedatacentersarebuildingtheirownpowerontheirlocationsbecausetheydon'twanttodealwiththeutilityorthegridandbeingenergyindependent.
ThisissomethingthatIactuallytalktoalot.Storageisbecomingincreasinglycheaper,andwe'reseeingalotmoreadoptionbyresidentialcustomers,especiallyplaceswhereyouhavelikestorms.Sowe'reseeinglikealotofsolarplusstorageinresidentialhomesinFloridabecausetheywantthatsortofenergyindependence,alsoenergyreliabilityifsomethinghappenswiththegrid.Soit'sinterestingbecauseI'msurprisedhowtheresidentialcustomersareactuallygettingalotmoreeducatedprettyquicklyonit.
Whenanyoneasksmeaboutsolar,Ijusttrytokeepitsimple.Isaythemsolaristhecheapestformofenergy,thefastesttocomeonline,andyoucouldbeindependentfromthegrid.Actually,thosearethethreethingsthatIsaybecausethere'sjustsomuchdifferentinformationandpeopledon'tknowyouknowwhattobelieveininmypodcastaswell.You'llhearmesayallthetime,likesolaristhefastestandcheapest.Sopeoplewillcomeuptomewhentheyseemeandthey'llsaysolaristhethisistheonethingthatIcan.
Imean,obviouslythere'scertaincaseswhereit'snot.It'sfunnybecausepeoplesometimespeoplewillcomeandtellmetheexceptiontotherule,butI'mlike,yeah,there'salwaysexceptionstoeverything.
Peter Pongracz: Yeah,Imean,peopleliketodefytheruleandeverythingelse,butacrosstheboard,definitely,evensolarwithstorage.IwastalkingtoProfessorDr.AdobeanKopesekfromISCConstance,theyarearesearchinstitute,andheexplainedbasicallylikelikerightnow,thethecheapestcostofenergyintermsofaroundthreecentsperkilowatthourproducedforsolarandanotherthreemaximumfourcents.Soaroundsix,seven,wearetalkingeurocents,butit'sapplicableintheUSaswell.
Soyoucan'tevengetclosetothat.Maybewithnuclear,yes,buthowlongisthatgoingtotaketobringonline?AndI'vebeenlisteningtoalotofinterestingpodcastsaboutthisnewRDgoingintothemicro-nuclearreactors,youknow,thatarethesizeofacar.
SPEAKER_01: Oh,interesting.Thesizeofacar,Ineverheardthat.
Peter Pongracz: It'sasizeofacar,butit'sbasicallyafewyearsinthefutureyoucandosmallercapacitiesandlargedensityinasmallplace,andit'salsoareallyapplicableusecaseforthedatacentersaswell.
SPEAKER_01: That'sinteresting.Ishouldlookintothat.Ihaven'theardaboutthat.Obviously,I'veheardaboutthemodularreactorsandobviouslyalotofNiklearebeingsupportedbythecurrentadministration,butIdidn'tknowaboutthesmallerscalethatFinnCarrersdefinitelylookintothat.Ican'tevenkeepupwithallthetechnology,andIfeellikethere'llbeevenmoreinnovationinthefuture.
Peter Pongracz: Soit'sextremelyquick,andyoucannotreallyjustreadthenewsallthetimebecauseotherwiseyou'releftbehind.AndonepieceoftechthatI'mreallyexcitedaboutisthethermalstorage.ThereareacoupleofcompaniesinFinlandwhobasicallystoreexcessenergyinheat.It'saninterestingapplicationforthelongerterm.Forexample,hereinEurope,whenyouhavethewinter,youdon'treallyhavetoomuchsolarbecausethesunisataprettylowangle.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,definitely.I'veheardaboutthattechnology.Imean,Idon'tknowthatmuchaboutit,butitsoundslikeit'sextremelycreative,youknow,inthetheusecaseforit'swhatthermalenergystorage,right?
Peter Pongracz: Yeah,thereareacoupleofcompanies.IfIhadtobetinthenextfiveyears,offwhatwouldbethemostprofitableaspectoftheindustryisdefinitelyrecycling,therecyclingofthemodules.Ispokentoafewcompaniesaswellwhodoalreadylikesmallscalerecycling.Thequestionislike,howdoyouscaleit?Becausethesecompaniesareusuallyrestrictedbyadiameterof,Idon'tknow,40-50kilometersaroundtheirhomebase.
Theshippingneedstobesoldaswellinacost-efficientmanner.ButIthinkwiththeolderparksbeingrefurbished,etc.,it'sgoingtobeahugebusinessopportunityaswell.
The hidden business opportunity in solar recycling and repowering
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,theredefinitelyisahugeopportunitywiththat.Imean,IactuallywenttothelargestsolarpanelrecyclingfacilityinYuma,Arizona.It'scalledWeRecycleSolar.Anditblewmymindlikewhatthey'reabletodowiththerecyclingtechnology.Andthenthey'reobviouslyrefurbishingpanelsandthentotallyrecycling.Anditwasjustamazingbecausethereisactuallynottheinfrastructuretodaytorecycleallthesepanels.
Sotheyactuallyhadpanelsfromallovertheworld,notjusttheUS,thattheyhadjustinwarehousesbecausetheassemblyline,youknow,theycan'tactuallyrecycleallthesepanels.Soit'sinterestingtosee.Andobviously,theyhaveexpansioncapabilitiesthatthey'relookinginto.AndImean,Ithinkit'sahugeopportunity.AnyRFPthatwerespondto,theyask,like,what'stherecyclingplan?Orwhathowwhatareyougoingtodoattheendofthelifeofthesystem?
Soit'sinterestingbecauseI'veonlyseenthepastfewyears,likeseveral.WewereactuallyinvitedtoaRubinCountyforasolarrecyclingplantinNewJerseythatopeneduplikesixmonthsago.Soit'sinteresting.Ithinkit'sahugeopportunity.It'sstillveryearly.Anditobviouslyyouneedahugelikeinfrastructureinvestmenttogetyouknowsomethinglikethatcompleted.
Peter Pongracz: AndforyouguysintheUS,it'snotmandatory,right?Toallocatesomemoneytotherecyclingpartwhenyou'reactuallydeployingtheproject.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,sothat'snotusuallyarequirement.Ihaven'tseenitfortheprojectsthatwe'vebeenin.Theyusuallyaskuswhattheplanisgoingtobe,buttheydon'tasktokeepacertainamountofmoneyinescrowfortherecyclingplantattheendoflife.Ihaven'tseenthatyet.Well,it'sinteresting.Like20to25yearsfromnow,theprojectcouldhavemultipleowners,right?I'malsoseeingalotofrepoweringofassets.I'msureyou'reseeingthatinEuropewhereitmakessensetoreplacethepanelsandtodomaybeaninverter,puttinganewinverter,whateveritmaybe,becauseoftheoutput.
Andthenyouhavetheexistinginfrastructurealreadythere.Soit'sinterestingbecausewe'restartingtoseealotofrepoweringofsolarassetsnow.
Peter Pongracz: Yeah,andImeanit'squiteeasytocalculatetheROIonthatbecausethepanelshaveincreasedinefficiency,insize,etc.Soyoucanreallyeasilyrunthemapsoflikewhetherit'sworthrepoweringornot.
SPEAKER_01: Definitely.Imean,Ithinkit'sahugeopportunity,especiallyyouknow,findingatotallynewsite.
Can the U.S. and Europe realistically catch up with China?
Peter Pongracz: SoImeanwe'vetalkedabouttheUS,wetalkedaboutEurope,let'stalkaboutthebig,bigelephantintheroom,China.Doyoudoyouhaveanyanydataonthat?Doyouhaveanyanyfeelingonhowwecouldactuallycatchupondeploymentormaybegenerationaswell?
SPEAKER_01: IthinkliketheamazingthingthatChinahasdoneislikethey'reextremelystrategicandlongterm,andtheyputsomuchenergygeneration,notjustrenewables,butallkindsofgeneration,especiallyyouknow,forAI,andthentoo,likeobviouslysolarandstorage,andyouknow,mostofthemanufacturingandtechnologyiscomingfromthere.Evenyouknow,BYDisnowthebiggestelectriccarcompany,surpassedTesla.
SoIdon'tknowhowwecompetewiththelong-termplanningwiththeChinesegovernment.AllIwouldsayisthismightbemyUSbias,isliketheUSseemstoalwayscomeupwithinnovation,andthere'llbesomuchinnovationthat'shappeningduringthistime.AndIthinktheonlywayliketherestoftheworldcouldcompetewithChinaandwhatthey'redoingisout-innovatingChina.Andwe'llseeiftherestoftheworldiscapableofdoingthat.
China'sdoingalotofsmartthingsandtheyhavealong-termoutlook.That'spartofbeingayouknowcommunistsortofcapitalisticcountryinasense,wheretheUSit'salotmorechallengingwithelectionsandspecialinterests.Peoplearejusttryingtostayinofficeandnotnecessarilylookingatthelong-termfutureofthecountry.
Peter Pongracz: Sotheyarewinningandtheyaregoingtowinonthelongrun.I'mnotreallyoptimisticaboutunlesswereallyradicallychangesomethingintheUSandEurope,butEuropeisyouknowfarfrombeinginthegame.Butthethingisthatonegraphthatkeepscirculatingontheinternet,youknow,thisfourterawatthourproductionintheUSandaround10inChina,andthenuhtheir10isstillincreasingexponentially,andtheUSisremainingflat,kindofsumsitup.
So,yeah,Iagreewithyou.Liketheonlywayoutofthisisuhout-innovatingorcomingupwithsomesortoflogicalandwin-wintypeoflicensingagreementsofbothtechnologyandmostlymanufacturing.Becauselet'sbehonest,bythetimewewouldwritedowntheeconomiesofscaleandexperiencelevelsofwhattheyhavealreadydeployedinChinatoday,itwilltakealong,longtime.Andthefutureisreallylikerobotizedandautomatedproductionlines.
Ithinkwewouldneedtostartdoingalittlebitmorecollaborationandlessfighting,butthat'seasiersaidthandone.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,definitely.Thatisuhgreattakeonit,Peter.Iappreciateyousharing.It'sdefinitelygonnabechallenging.
Peter Pongracz: AndIthinkifthereissomebodyouttherewhocouldreallygiveaninsider'sperspectiveofwhatChina'stakeisontheenergyproduction,thatwouldbehuge.Sopleasegetintouch.
SPEAKER_01: Yes,it'sinteresting.IknowactuallythispersonthatI'vehadonthepodcast,hisnameisDanFrench,andhefocusesonlikewhat'shappeninginChinaandwhatthey'redoingcomparedtotherestoftheworld,becauseIguesshehasinternationalclientswhoareconcernedwiththat.HeoralsoactuallydoesthebiggestagrovoteconferenceintheUS.OneofthethingsthatI'venoticedishelooksatthingsfromanenergyperspective.
Youknow,obviouslytherearealotofgreatmindsinthesolarindustry,buteveryone'sverysolar.Likeifthey'vejustdonesolar,theylookateverythingbasedonasolarperspectiveandnotatotalenergygeneration.Andforthisenergytransition,it'snotjustgoingtobesolarandstorage,it'sgonnabealotofdifferenttechnologies.Luckily,whenIfirstgraduated,IactuallyworkedatDeloitteintheirenergygroup.
SoIdidalotofdifferentfueltechnologiesandtheywerenon-renewable.SoIlearnedalotfromthat.Andthat'salsohelpfultoo,tohavelikefirstthatground-upknowledgeofallenergyresourcesandhoweachoftheresourcesfitwithinthegenerationmixandhowthat'schangingovertime,youknow.
Peter Pongracz: AndalsoIthinkusashumans,wearewe'veinsomecasesweareextremelycreative,andinothers,wewearejustgoingwiththeflow.Andthen,youknow,ofcourse,ifyouhavesomegoodworkflowsfromoilandgas,etc.,youcanapplysomeofthoseinsolaraswell.It'sjustasimilar,similaruhthingtodo.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,itwasinterestingtome.SoIwasactually,there'sacompanycalledT1Energy,they'rebuildinguhUS-madesolarpanelsinTexas.MostoftheteamcomesfromoilandgasanddoingoilandgasprojectsinTexas,andtheybelievethere'sahugeopportunitywithsolarandsolarmanufacturingfromthegrounduphereintheUS.Andactually,theyhaveafacility,Ithink,thattheyboughtrecentlyorbuiltinTexas,butitwasinterestingbecausetheCEOwastalkingabouthowallhisexperienceinoilandgas,howthatappliestowhathe'sdoingnowonsolar.
Itwasinterestingtosee,youknow,becauseit'ssimilar,it'sjustadifferentfueltype,andobviouslywithineachfueltypethere'suniquepartsofit,butit'sstillverysimilarinwhatit'sgoingtodoattheendfromagenerationperspective.
Why solar still has a messaging problem
Peter Pongracz: Yeah,forsure.AndImean,Ithinkwherewegowrongsometimesisthatwearetootribal,youknow,acrosstheboardinmostcases.AndIthinkweshouldreallybealittlebitmorestoicinasenseofthinkingaboutwaystocollaborateforreachingthebiggercommongoal.
SPEAKER_01: Forsure.Youknow,withinthesolarindustryintheUS,likethechallengethatwehaveisevenwithinthesolarindustry,there'ssomanydifferentvoices,andeveryone'stellingtheselikestaterepresentatives,utilitiesonthefederallevel,differentstories.Solikeeveryoneultimatelyisconfused,right?Becauseeventhoughwe'reexpertsinit,they'renotexpertsinit.Andthenthere'sthreesolarpeopletellingthemsomethingdifferent,soitcreatesallthisconfusion.
Sothat'swhygoingbacktowhatIsaidbefore,Itellpeopleinsteadofallthisstuffthatwe'retellingthem,justtellthemsolar'sthecheapestpowersourceandthefastesttocomeonline.That'sallyouneedtotellthem.Butit'screatedsomuchconfusionwiththeindustrybecausewehaveaPRissuewherewe'renotorganizedwellenoughandeveryone'ssopassionate.Everyonehastheirownwaysthatthroughtheirlobbyingcouldhelptheirbusinessindividually,whetheritbeutilityscale,residential,commercial,industrial,butitcreatesalotofconfusionandalotofmiseducation.
Andthenthatcreatesalotofconfusionwithintheutilities,withinthefederalandstategovernments.Andsowehavetoalwaysrememberthateventhoughthatwe'reexpertsinenergy,energyisextremelycomplicated.Andespeciallywhenyoutalkaboutpoliticians,likeotherthanobviouslydonatingmoney,whichisveryimportant,it'slikeeducatingthemsimplybecausethey'renotjustlookingatenergy,they'relookingathealthcare,they'relookingatallthesedifferentthings.
Andthisthemorewe'reabletosimplifythemessagetothem,themoreimpactfulit'sgoingtobe.AndIthinklikeI'venoticedintheUS,wehaven'tdoneagreatjobofthat.Andyouknow,IknowI'vebeentalkingtoalotofpeoplewhoareinvolvedinthelobbyingeffortthatweshouldtrytogetonecohesivemesssothatandtrytobeassimpleaspossible.Theotherterm,too,Americansloveindependence.Weshouldbetalkingaboutenergyindependenceallthetime.
AndwhenIsaytolikearesidentialhomeorder,energyindependence,theygetexcitedwhentheyhearaboutthat,youknow,especiallyasyouseealotmorelikeoutagesandblackouts,andobviouslylikestormsandthingslikethat,wherepeoplearelosingpower.Theyreallydoappreciatethat.PuertoRicoisacommonwealthoftheUnitedStates,andI'mactuallyveryactive.InacharitycalledLectureoftheSun,wheretheyinstallsolarandstorageforresidentialhomeownersinPuertoRicothathavemedicalneeds.
The case for making energy independence the core message
InPuertoRico,theyhaveconstantblackouts.Sowhenyousayenergyindependence,theyknowwhatyou'retalkingabout.Evenkidsunder10yearsoldwillsay,weneedsolarandstorageforenergyindependence.ButthemainlandoftheUnitedStates,we'vebeenveryreliablewithelectricity.ButIthinkinthefuture,asthegridgetsolderandobviouslytheupgradesarenotbeingmade,evencyberattacksandthingslikethat,you'regoingtoseethegridgodownmoreoftenthaninthepast.
SoIthinkpeople,atleastintheUS,don'thavetheirappreciationbecausewedon'thavethesamepoweroutagesasothercountriesdo.Ithinkthat'llchangeinthefuture.
Peter Pongracz: That'sextremelytrue.Andifyouthinkaboutthat,itwillalwaystranslateintogeopoliticsaswell.Thatyouwanttobeenergyindependent,buttobeenergyindependent,uhitactuallymeansbeingindependentofothercountriesaswell,forbeingabletopoweryourindustrytobeabletopoweryourday-to-dayoperationsaswell.Andthat'swhatmostpeopledon'treallyunderstandwiththiswholetopicofenergy,thatweweneedasmuchgenerationaspossible.
Andhopefullywecancoverthatwiththecheapestandfastestenergysource.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,Itotallyagreewithyou.SomanyAmericanshavediedinwarsrelatedtooilthepast20,30years,andwiththetransitiontoEVs,we'relessdependentonoil.Sowe'relessdependentoncountriesthathaveoil,right?Andit'sinteresting.Idon'tknowevenifIshouldgointoVenezuela,buttheoilcompaniesarenotreallythatinterestedintheoilthat'sthereinVenezuelabecausewe'vetransitionedtootherways.
Andalsothetechnology,too,hasgonemoreadvancedforoiljoilingintheUS,wherewehaveourownandwehaveanabundancesupplyofnaturalgas,whichgivesusacompetitiveadvantage,andobviouslywe'resellingittoothercountries.AndbutI'mnotlikeanexpertatthis.
Peter Pongracz: Yeah,youEuropeisuhstillstillstillimportingoilfromtheUS,youknow,afterthethewholeUkrainewarsituation,ititkindofjustshiftedthatweareshippingitfromthere.Butthat'salsoniceasatemporarysolution.Butyoureallyneedtofindawaytobeindependent.
SPEAKER_01: Well,that'swhyIfeelliketheenergytransition,right?EventuallylikeEVswillbethepredominantform,andthenyouwon'tbedependent.Butallthisobviouslytakestimetodo,right?Tobuildthethisnewinfrastructurethatwe'rebuildingandthatyou'rebuildingandthroughthepodcastandyoureducationoftheaudienceandgettingthesegreatpeopletocomeandlearnalot.Soit'sinteresting.Onethingtoo,Iwouldsay,islikethesolarworld,eveninternationally,isprettysmall.
Likeyou'reliketwodegreesseparatedfromKevinBacon.Likesomeoneknowssomeonewhoknowsyou.Andsothat'swhyobviouslylikepeoplewillcallmeallthetimeoremailme,like,whatdoyouthinkofthisperson?
Peter Pongracz: Soyou'realsorunningKYC.
SPEAKER_01: It'sinterestingbecauseit'ssuchasmallindustrystill,eventhoughit'sgrowingexponentially.Butpeopletrustcertainpeopletobasicallyevaluateotherpeopleiftheydon'tknowthem.Soit'sinterestingbecauseeverythingisabouttrustattheendofthedayandwhetheryoucouldaddthevaluethatyousaythatyou'regonnaadd.
Peter Pongracz: Itmakessense.AndImean,youcanhavesomeshort-termwinsifyouoverpromiseandunderdeliver,butusuallyyoushouldbetheotherwayaround.Soyoushouldtrytoover-deliverandunderpromise,right?
SPEAKER_01: Oh,forsure.Ithinkalsobeingtransparent,communicating,obviouslyaddingvaluetothecustomer.Andthenalso,too,likeit'samazing.Likemylong-timecustomers,it'salmostlikeit'sapersonalrelationship.We'vebecomefriends,they'llinvitemetofamilyoutings.It'sinterestingovertime,likehowtherelationshipsevolve.AndIthinkpeoplehavetolikeyouaswell.Evenifyoucouldaddvaluetothem,theyhavetofeelthatyou'reontheirsideandthatyouhaveapersonalrelationshipwiththem.
Youknow,it'salmostlikeafriend.
Peter Pongracz: Becauseyouwanttobeworkingwithpeopleyouactuallygetalongwith.Youdon'twanttobeworkingwithsomebodywhoyouactuallyreallyhate.
SPEAKER_01: Oh,forsure.Andthat'sthegreatthing.Likeobviouslybeingonyourowntoo,youcouldchoosemorewhoyou'dwanttoworkwith,youknow.AndIthinkthat'sreallyimportantforlikeoutput,butalsohappiness,right?It'sfunwhenyou'reworkingwithpeoplethatyouknow,like,andtrust.
Peter Pongracz: Yeah,Imean,youyouknow,youneedtohaveyourownpurposeandyoufindjoyintheday-to-daythingsthatyoudo.Otherwise,itwasthepoint,right?
SPEAKER_01: Oh,forsure.Thesolarcoaster.
Peter Pongracz: Yeah,forsure.Andweareactuallygettingtotheendofourtime.Likewe'vetalkedaboutalotofthings,butforpeoplewhoareinterestedingettingintouchwithyou,what'sthebestwaytoreachout?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,definitely.So,youknow,wehaveawebsitefortheSolarMaverickPodcast,SolarMaverickPodcast.com.YoucouldfindmeonLinkedIn.Youcouldalsoemailus.It'sthroughlikethedevelopmentcompany,RenewEnergy.It'sINFOatreneuenergy.com.Yeah,happytoyouknowconnectwithyouraudience.IappreciatePeteryoumakingthetime,andit'sgreat.Ifeellikewecouldtalkforafewmorehours.SoI'mexcitedforthegrowthofyourpodcast,andIappreciateyoujoiningthisjourney.
Peter Pongracz: Thankyoufortakingthetime,andI'msurethisisnotthefirstandlastepisodewithyou,sowe'lldoanotheronesomewhereinthefuture.
SPEAKER_01: Definitely,forsure.Iappreciateyouhavingme.
Peter Pongracz: Yeah,thanks,Manu.Reallyappreciateit,andthankyou.Seeyousoon.